ways the u.s. can get paid for brokering the deal it is thursday, september 17, 2020 "squawk box" begins now. andrew ross sorkin and joe kernen they brought kelly in to make sure we behave >> all the way to the studio >> you are in the studio >> she is in the studio. >> you are on delay. >> i'm in the studio this is my studio. that's fine. just know you have a delay

let's milk this and go back and forth. we don't even finish each other's sent answers it will be awesome >> this is the first time you are back at the nasdaq in a while. >> i go away and then i'm quarantined. i went away in july and finally got back here. i went away again and came back and been quarantined another two weeks. >> you got to start going away whachlt are you doing? >> i wish these states would drop off there is 57 states on the list no there are a lot of states on the list not all states -- i was in a county that was like an island, nobody was there i am glad to be back there is a big krispy kreme

thing. most lights ever i was looking and i was thinking about you. i got to stop thinking about you when i'm not at work that's not what i want in my life >> you may draw me back to time square but so will crispy cream. >> we were talking about this the last couple of weeks i haven't been in there in ea while. he said there is no one around nobody on the streets. is that the case >> there is people here. a few. it is not like time square when you say time square, it is supposed to be like new year's eve. like everything, are people flying on airplanes? there are people but it is definitely down 80%, 90% in terms of the traffic there but

we do have a beautiful american flag all the time. i'm looking now to see if we are banterring too much. whose read is this you, andrew? >> it is but you can take it >> go ahead. see, in my studio, i have access to all of this information the dow looks like it will be down triple digits nasdaq looking to be off about 87 points. the treasury yields real quick and i'll kick it over. looking at the 10-year note at .679 at this point. you've got the tiktok news. >> overnight saying oracle's

proposal he's not ready to sign off on the deal. he said he's not in favor of the majority in ownership. the president says he'll get a support. we'll have more on this story at the bottom of the hour the u.s. could start distributing a covid vaccine that contradicts earlier remarks. those remarks were made to the senate those remarks were expected in limited quantities, joe? >> saw that. it is a little surreal we'll see what happens it is being politicized both sides. one side before or after the election the other side doesn't want it

watching the president explain how some of the people at the cdc and others explained i think he was confused. it is a hard case. we are getting innurred to it. i think we'll be talking about the vaccine today and the prospects for it >> your own feelings about getting it pro or nervous >> i'm totally ready i'd be first in line i'm ready right now. i'm ready for my immune system i know there could be some potential side effects i'd certainly rather have a little spike protein than the virus itself i haven't had an -- i had an antibody test a month or so ago after someone in my family months ago, didn't know she had

it at all but had antibodies that would be like winning the lottery, right >> i have fantasies that maybe when i didn't feel exactly right, one of those days, maybe i had the antibodies wouldn't you get that test before the vaccine wouldn't you get an antigen or anti-body test first >> i'd likely take something i'd like to see which one is approved first i want to understand it. i want to understand the dynamics of how it works and what the possible ramifications may be when i've talked to various doctors we get the opportunity to talk to >> this is a guy who gets those

iphone upgrades. you wait a couple of weeks for the iphone upgrade >> yes i wait a couple of weeks on the software upgrade and i'll wait a couple of weeks on this and proudly wear the mask in the meantime >> do you wear your mask around alone? >> no. >> walking outside i see people wearing masks when they are alone >> if i was going to town, yes, i would have one on. >> not in your car >> not in my own car >> if i go into an establishment, i wear a mask,

when i come out to the parking lot, i take my mask off. >> yes we are in agreement. the pandemic is the biggest thing that's happened in the entire planet. some of the world's most powerful oil producing nations will meet virtually to review the policy the opec plus meeting will focus on slash demand forecast and the international energy agency. saudi arabia and others will get others to stick to the output cuts isn't cheating and opec go hand in hand? maybe even more so, you've got energy that has been top of the leadership pack for sectors. i think you had an inventory draw

it got lost in all the fed stuff. what is most interesting is that the u.s. is losing its crown as the biggest oil producer we lost it because of covid. not clear if we are going to get it back. >> not clear on this you are talking about snowflake. can either of you give me a 30-second synopis of hadoop on google, there is a 10-hour quick course i'm thinking about doing it. maybe not. you know what i'm talking about. >> who at berkshire took the course >> this is not it somehow leap frogs the technology >> we'll have a lot, lot more on

snowflake and talk about the red hot public debut its market cap is $70 billion. an incredible story. down about 3% pre-market we'll have many updates throughout the morning as we head to break, let's look at shares of nikola and shares pop up the analyst defended the company after short seller remarks were overweight "squawk box" will be right back. >> announcer: today's big number, $820 million that's how much berkshire hathaway made yesterday on its investment in snowflake. the data cloud company closed up

e 2% from its ipo price. th12th stock this year to more than double in its first trading day. ♪ you can go your own way

♪ go your own way your wireless. your rules. only xfinity mobile lets you choose shared data, unlimited or a mix of each. and switch anytime so you only pay for the data you need.

switch and save up to $400 a year on your wireless bill. with the carrier rated #1 in customer satisfaction. call, click, or visit your local xfinity store today. welcome back to "squawk box" this morning a blizzard hitting wall street of sorts yesterday snowflake shares more than doubled making it the biggest software ipo ever.

blizzard is usually a bad thing. in this case, it is a good thing. you can debate that. >> that's right and blizzards also don't normally come in september but it is 2020 >> the biggest ipo of the year and biggest first-day jump in about two decades. snowfla snowflake pricing 41% above the range. by the end of the day, soared 112% giving that company a $71 billion market cap the payoff was big on paper for early investors. sloothman sitting on shares of $4 billion and another for $11 billion

stake and berkshire hathaway more than doubled its monday a word for investors whether they can sustain the momentum already the most expensive software company to debut. yesterday a easy revenue more than doubled shares are already lower pre-market today >> lower 3.5%. just an amazing move >> with fed liquidity. saying he thinks it is portfolio managers who are overweight. apple and other names are desperate to the story

when is the last time you shared the story? >> i think it was last year what companies could be prepping to go public. it wasn't a well-known company one of these that hits to what you were saying earlier. you've got this tremendous concentration of tech companies in the s&p 500 right now more than you've seen in decades. portfolio managers are looking beyond those names this company came out. they have tremendous top-line growth almost three times for 2019 still unprofitable they've spent more on sales and marketing. people see this as a skarsity

play of top line growth. >> do we know how and why berkshire got such a large piece of this? it is so unlike them >> you are right a lot of reporters are trying to figure out who is behind this. is it buffett him self interestingly, they took a $250 million private placement alongside salesforce and also participated in $4 million shares in a secondary offering with the ipo all of that took place at the ipo price, $245, so they would have paid double amazing. nice day for them. >> amazing to see them participate in these prices, these valuations

let's talk more with an analyst. managing partner, can you start by telling people why snowflake is such an asset in value here >> over the last decade, we've heard so much about this trend towards big data the next evolution is really big data management. the point is to create intelligence software and for users. it is the precursor for ai is it is that bridge. they help companies more intelligently in the cloud. >> we were talking about it. who are the rivals in this space? how much of a lead does it have? >> when i think about their competition, some of the biggest

are actually the companies they work with. aws, google, microsoft with azure. those are the ones i would be the most focused on. others in themarket that are the same game, data bricks, which is private still if i were an investor in snowflake, i would be focused more on those bigcloud providers instead of shutting those others down the market >> we know they like to go down the market streak. they would be a candidate for that what is the valuation this morning, what are we talking about in terms of the multiple does it generate earnings? >> it doesn't generate earnings yet. in our rough estimate. it is somewhere around 70 times next year's revenue. if you make it the time of the

ipo, that is one of the most expensive companies in the software market. we are cautious here the valuation is rich. there is a restrictive float in an ipo these moves can be exaggerated there is not enough sellers to meet the demand in the market. we'll see more volatility in the name and investors might get more chance at the market valuation. >> i read a quote that someone said the pandemic accelerated this cloud adoption or migration by 10 years. we are hearing everything. the pandemic, stay-at-home it is ccelerated is that true and why do you agree with that? >> 10 years feels aggressive to me i would believe maybe a year or

two. we've seen production of productivity software. much of that managed in the cloud. when i think about the opportunity managed in the cloud. working beyond the work at home trend. i think it is more like a year or two that is be egg accelerated. this doesn't mean the trend is real the real long-term trend i don't think it has been accelerated that quickly >> when people talk to you about the 70 times revenue name. to use the imperfect analogy, the last ipo berkshire bought into was ford in the 1950s >> as crazy as it might sound, i think it does. when we think about the trend towards ai and the amount of data that will go into creating intelligent software

applications i think you'll see the necessity for applications like snowflake increase by 10 x over the next 10 years i think there is a huge growth opportunity. a lot of that is priced in and people realized that there is a real market, giant market a decade out. if i were an investor. we are very long term focused. you have to be patient i think there is a real market behind it. >> fascinating we appreciate it so, guys, i was just thinking about this. thinking about jeff bezos. this was founded like seven or eight years ago and on the notion, we are going to compete with amazon, aws they said nobody can compete they sold books online eight years ago, already the

leadi leading. >> you have a guy in south africa that was like, hey, can i use some of your extra server space and then thinking, we should do this for everybody >> i wasn't thinking about the cloud -- maybe opening up my commador to store something. >> coming up, key details for airlines and the ceo from moderna with an update on the vaccine and the trials that's at 7:00 a.m. as we head to break a look at the biggest pre-market declines in the s&p 500.

♪ ♪ [ engines revving ]

♪ ♪ it's amazing to see them in the wild like th-- shhh. for those who were born to ride, there's progressive.

welcome back we are now two weeks away from a key deadline federal aid linked provision on job cuts. you are not allowed to do that we could see mass layoffs on

october 1. airlines and labor unions are approving calls. airlines could furlough or layoff more than 30,000 people when the current term expires. another round could be approved. don't get me started on this could be another $25 billion it is possible share holders in the airlines could benefit from this >> you are trying to paid me you want to support corona capitalism, go with god. but i'm not going to do it

>> everyone will say airlines are essential. >> it has nothing to do with being essential. if there is a private market, let the private market do it if the taxpayer is going to pay for it, there should be again win benefit for the taxpayer we need the money, we are willing to give the share holders some of that how can you do that? >> you started with, you know how i feel so i'm not going to be bated into this. did you see that

>> people are messaging me saying oh, my god. hook, line and sinker. it is better when you argue with guests than with me. >> it is a good thing, andrew. you got to stand up for what you believe in i love it. >> for some reason you love long trips and the front of the plane. airlines >> it is about fairness for the share holder and fairness for the taxpayer >> but we are bailing everyone out. why pick on the taxpayer >> it is your money. >> i just drove 13 hours i drove down 13 hours and back 13 hours >> i want other people to continue to own airline stocks

and fund the industry and keep it viable. keep all the jobs, keep all the flights. i like the roots and the convenience. >> i didn't know you have become a socialist. >> i've been with you 11 years some of my stuff is rubbing off on you >> this whole corporate cronyism and socialism efforts, i didn't know it was reverse. coming back, the fed pledges to keep rates low for years we'll give you some portfolio picks as well. a look at the s&p 500 winners and losers as business moves forward,

we're all changing the way things get done. like how we redefine collaboration... how we come up with new ways to serve our customers... and deliver our products. but no matter how things change, one thing never will... you can rely on the people and the network of at&t... to help keep your business connected. when it comes to parenting, you're a pro. you know reflexes are key. you know your kid doesn't step around puddles. and wet shoes, not cool. you know what else isn't cool? those cheap leaky diapers. because with luvs, you get the pro-level leak protection you're looking for. luvs, parent like a pro.

good morning welcome back to "squawk box. >> dow off about 212 points. looking to open off about 29 points joe. >> signaling no rate hikes with the conference yesterday afternoon. >> we said from the beginning we would try to provide support and

stability in relief in the acute phase and support the expansion it is here and well along. >> ahead of the investment group also tasked with coming up with all the duration and fixed income i read that and got nervous you got a lot developed. because it was the fed we are trying to interpret, i want to go to you. saying we are staying at zero

for years was good what you said might have gotten more clarity and how the balance sheet had gone off jackson hole set up a long-term framework. they won't tighten because they are too low. the meeting statement that goes higher and is real ieszed. if there is any disappointment, they didn't help with the outcome i'd call it the modest disappointment they should probably start with whisperings that the fed has

good objectives. how would they get there was there anything that disappointed you, what is not to like about that yield? >> i like that as an equity investor and managing bond portfolio, i feel your pain. it is really hard to find a yield right now. my clients, 60% are baby boomers. they need income you start being loo -- looking at these, it is a great world to be invested in so much cheaper than your blue chip companies the things that have to do with the reopening of this economy.

>> what did you think of snowflake, ryan? >> outrageous, 100% one day. sounds like a lot of college students in their dorms on zoom that need something to do. i have to think it is pure speculation. >> people justifying that these amazing companies at the forefront of things like this, that they grow into their valuation. they are seen the same way years ago. we don't need to mention any names but look at what has happened in valuation. no longer below. no longer 50 to 60 billion some are multiple of that now. you have to buy them now or you are never going to get them.

100 years trunkated. >> are you going to short it you can make your clients 100% return are you ready to step up and do that or are you just talking about it >> after looking at tesla and seeing where they are right now, i'm not that bold. a short squeeze is always around the corner the end of the day, it will look bad. this is like 99-2000 you are seeing the street justifying that has to be a bad sign from where i'm standing i'm not confident enough to short the market i wish i was that good >> let's say everything is up out over its skis. that is just snowflake let's say those are overvalued in equities. would that be good for fixed

income they would not be exposed. >> when you have the 10-year treasury at 67 basis points. i think ryan mentioned those discounting profits. hasn't been lower. that is propelling risk assets stocks, bonds, sharply higher. from that sense, all of these markets have been linked discount rates are all below one. it makes sense that profits are now in bigger prices than what we pay for today the fed wants that and is trying to support those positions i think so long as the economy recovers and we get a

vaccination, the optimism in the stock market doesn't need to end badly. ultimately, we'll have disappointment it is not clear to me, stock market is taken off. there are pockets of excess in tech there are also parts of the market that are down there are cross sectors. as far as the s&p is concerned, it always has its place. >> ryan, is that a quarantine thing or are you going to a club tonight? it is cool you going out tonight? well there's no clubs open so it must be a quarantine >> are you referring to the beard or the shirt

>> now that i think about it, it could be either. i'm not looking for an answer. grow it. do it like him do it. exactly. >> rj, you are making me look bad this morning i'm inspired >> very 90s. >> i don't think you have to work with all that wine money, rj >> i wish, i wish. different branch of the family >> thank you both. you like that kelly. say you got to end it and then talk another minute. >> just want to listen to the last 60 seconds sometimes. >> coming up, we'll have the latest on tiktok and a few sticking points. don't miss our first on cnbc with an interview with merodna's

ceo. we are back after this ♪ born to be wild ♪ moves like these need pampers cruisers 360 fit with an ultra-stretchy waistband and 360 fit that adapts to every wild move plus up to 12 hours of pampers protection so anything your wild child does cruisers can too

our best ever fit is pampers cruisers 360 fit introducing the all-new 2021 gla suv. ♪ starting at just $36,230. it's the biggest thing that ever happened to small. lease the gla 250 suv for just $399 a month at your local mercedes-benz dealer.

welcome back jim carrey landed a coveted role he'll be portraying joe biden on this season of saturday night live joining a list tapped to play politicians alec baldwin will be back to play president trump and another actress to play harris what is interesting about that, guys, are they going to have a

studio audience? >> new york, get ready for pricier dinners. passing a law that will allow restaurants to add a covid recovery charge to builds. it has to be clearly disclosed and can be only up to 10% of total restaurants. they begin offering indoor dining on september 30 some people might be okay paying that given the pandemic and the moment we are in >> they are so late in opening the restaurants, period. the first thing they do is say, don't worry, you can have the covid charge is this common it is not where i live >> i haven't seen it anywhere. i might have eaten inside one time but the outside, i feel pretty good about. the tables are all spaced around and some built-up demand

some people do want to go out. sorkin, you know jim carrey most famous role and movie. the mask think about it plague biden, the mask i think it makes sense it is a good call. >> coming up on the other side of this break, an update on two companies facing a loom u ban in the u.s. tiktok and wechat nasdaq off about 124 points. s&p 500 down 34 points we'll be back in a moment.

everyone wakes up every morning to a world that must keep turning. the world can't stop, so neither can we. because the things we make, help make the world go round. they make it cleaner, healthier, and more connected. it's what we build that keeps things moving forward. so with every turn, we'll keep building a world that works.

welcome back a government filing says a looming ban on wechat won't target the people who used the app to communicate it was unclear if this would be considered a banned transaction. it would likely impair messaging features on the app sparking a lawsuit from a nonprofit group which is seeking to stop it. they rely on the app for work, worship, for staying in touch with relatives in china. a hearing is scheduled for today.

andrew >> thanks, kelly. meantime, president trump saying he's not prepared to sign off on oracle's potential partnership with tiktok and is expected to receive a report, he says today, about it >> they're giving me studies on the deal it has to be 100% as far as national security is concerned no, i'm not prepared to sign off on anything. i have to see the deal we need security, especially after what we've seen with respect to china and what's going on we want security. >> joining us right now for more on tiktok and the challenges for u.s. firms doing business in china, i want to welcome sue gordon former national security director and she is a cnbc contributor. gordon consulted with microsoft but she was not involved directly in the microsoft/tiktok negotiations thank you so much for joining us help us with this. if this transaction as described

and reported is such that it lives on oracle servers but the tiktok algorithm and the like is developed in china and eventually brought here, is that, do you feel, a 100% national security safety >> good morning, andrew. great question, and haven't seen the deal so we'll have to look at that. i really appreciated the president yesterday saying he'd want to look at it before he agreed to it so i think the important thing is there are three things you're looking at when you look at security one is the algorithm trusted two, can you make sure the data won't be corrupted and, three, and this is the one that i think we'll really have to look at, is a 2017 china national intelligence law says

that chinese companies, citizens, government can be compelled to provide their data to china so you have technology concerns, and it sounds like oracle may have a solution to the technology trusted concerns, the algorithmic look, but my question would be have they taken care of the security concerns if the ownership still remains with china >> let me ask it this way then if, in fact, you're right, let's say the chinese government has complete and utter authority ultimately over these authorities if, in fact, they were to so choose that authority and say -- >> right. >> -- give us the data if that data lives on an oracle server somewhere in california and that algorithm lives in california, doesn't that -- would that represent the challenge to this idea that we're just talking about >> yeah. so that's where the devil's in the detail, and have you done enough to preclude because of

that posting here in the united states, control by the company, have you done enough to preclude the issue that china could compel a chinese company to provide data no matter where it physically resides so i think that's, you know, the era we're in in general is data sovereignty, who owns the data but in this particular case, you want to look at the deal to make sure there are enough protections to ensure that remaining a chinese company, even distant, does that give them authority over the data and the second is with respect to technology can you speak to this issue? back in june or july microsoft was speaking of a minority

interest in the company, the data would live on azure and i don't know to the extent where the algorithm at that point in the conversation was going to live, but how very different are these deals because it seems in many ways that they're so similar and at that time as you know the trump administration back to, no, no, no, we can't do that, you have to buy the entire company. >> so, again, not being part of the deal team at all, i have no particular knowledge, but as i read what came out in the press and what microsoft said, i think the question is was there an ownership change in other words, had you actually shifted ownership of essentially what bytedance has and what becomes tiktok and i think that may be the difference but, again, wasn't part of the deal team so you shouldn't listen to me as an authority on that, but that's what i understand through the reporting. >> let me just ask you more broadly. >> sure. >> what do you think this is

going to do long term to national security issues and technology and technology companies? obviously people talk about this idea of a splinternet, two internets, one controlled by china and one by the u.s. and other countries. is that the way this is all headed >> it certainly seems like we're trending toward whether it's a technology cold war or whether it's a rise of techno nationalism where you're going to have the west and you're going to have china and businesses are going to have to figure out how they are going to survive in a world of duelling export controls and sanctions. in other words, is there going to be in china for china and businesses that want to compete in china are going to have to reside there or if they want to compete worldwide they're going to have to manufacture outside china. so i think what you're going to see is for the next few years this -- i can't think of a

better term than technology nationalism coming along, and that has implication in terms of business structures, business partnerships. >> right >> and it also leaves kind of the rest of the world deciding which side they're going to be on think about what europe's going to do. >> right >> so i think there's a real concern both in terms of -- >> a lot of questions. >> -- global leadership and innovation >> sue, we want to thank you for joining us >> you bet. >> hope to have you back to continue this conversation thank you so much for joining us this morning. >> look forward to it. thanks, andrew. thanks coming up, don't miss a first on cnbc interview with moderna, stephane bancel. we'll get the latest on the race for a covid-19 vaccine then later we have the president of s.l. green on the future of the company. they just opened a big one vaerltn ndbi imidtown.

the second tallest office plaza. when i was in high school, this was the theater i came to quite often. the support we've had over the last few months has been amazing. it's not just a work environment. everyone here is family. if you are ready to open your heart and your home, check us out. we thought for sure that we were done. and this town said: not today. ♪

andgood job, michael! does.ay. ok, lindsey now tell the class what your mommy does... my mom has super powers. it's like she can see the future. what?! it's like she time travels in a rocket ship. that's cool! and then she comes back saying "try this" or "try that." she helps everyone. she helps them feel less worried. wow! mommy, so what is it that you do? i'm a financial advisor. she is! aig proudly supports all the professionals taking care of our financial futures.

you know your kid doesn't step around puddles. and you know cheap leaky diapers are an amateur move. you need luvs pro-level protection. luvs. parent like a pro.

stocks bracing for another day of selling what you need to watch ahead of the open is straight ahead and it may be a summer still, but a blizzard hit wall street snowflake surging in the biggest software ipo ever. is it a sign a bubble is brewing? joe biden and democrats plan to repeal the salt limits. we'll debate whether that's the right thing to do as the second hour of "squawk box" begins right now. good morning and welcome to "squawk box" right here on cnbc. i'm andrew ross sorkin along with joe kernen and kelly evans in today becky is off today take a quick look at u.s. equity futures at this hour we do have some red arrows

across the board nasdaq opening up 153 points, s&p looking to open up 38 points dow jones 257 points down. kelly, i finally figured it out. it's been 30 years. >> what? >> you have to look the opposite way that you normally would. do you know how to -- you're looking the wrong -- >> yeah, i'm looking off into space. it looks like i'm looking at andrew. >> moderna, holding its r&d day. the company announcing that 250,296 participants have now enrolled in the phase 3 of the coronavirus vaccine trial and that is near the number that's enrolled in the pfizer trial meg tirrell joins us now with a special guest. thank you for that, meg. 29,000 wasn't going to be enough i needed that 296. are you -- what if it's 297 now, right? probably not probably exactly right

>> somebody could have received a vaccine this morning you never know, joe. special guest joining us is moderna ceo stephane bancel. thank you for joining us joe pointed out that number. there's another important number you pointed out, the number of people in the trial who received the second dose of the vaccine, more than 10,000 so judging by how quickly this trial has enrolled and how quickly people are getting the second shot, what does that tell you about when we might get to see the data >> good morning, meg thank you for having us back so we're sticking to what we have said before, based on the current epidemiology, the rate of infection in the country, in the location and counties where we have sites, we an tis ticipae first rollout to be in november. that's our base plan our best plan is october i think it's unlikely, but it's possible and if the infection rate in the country was to slow down in the

next weeks, it could potentially be pushed out as a worst case scenario i would say december. >> i see and you've also published this morning, you announced in your press release, the protocols for the clinical trial this is something that the scientific community has started to push for. it's not something the drug industry said and in fact other companies have declined to make this information public. why did you decide to share all of these plans about the statistical analyses for the trial? >> because of transparency we believe this is unprecedented times. there's a lot of suffering from a public health stand point, from an economic standpoint and there's a lot of questions as you know, usually only people like you and i care about typical trial design and stuff like that, but it's a very unusual time we know we as an industry have been working hard for nine months now chasing this virus. if the moderna vaccine were to

get a good safety result and a good efficacy result and be approved by the agency, we care deeply that this vaccine is trusted by the public, by clinician and nurses around the country so it is used. it is a big waste if you work so hard to get a vaccine to work and people don't trust the safety, number one, and the efficacy of the vaccine. we thought like we signed the pledge with the rest of the industry last week saying we'll adhere to the highest standard of ethics as we conduct that study. so we thought sharing the protocol publicly would allow anybody to look at it and we ka have an understanding of all the goings on to ensure the safety of the participants and the integrity of the scientific medical process. >> yeah. on that point of safety, of course, we saw astrazeneca's trials halted after a safety issue.

one participant in the u.k they've since gotten the green light to restart the trials in the u.k. not in the united states they're not sharing what the diagnosis was or how they knew it was safe to resume. what are your thoughts, first, have you seen any safety signals that might be similar to what we heard about that, potentially a spinal cord issue we heard from the nih director has that forced you to take any closer look and do you think we need more transparency around the communications of that safety issue so people feel more comfortable with it? >> i think the first point is it shows the process is working the fact that the safety committee decided to pause the study in all the sites in the world is good news it shows and this happens regularly in vaccine clinical development that when something doesn't look right, the safety committee acts quickly

it's very difficult for me to comment on communications or details because i'm not part of the company, of course, and i have no insight of any of the data the only piece for me that is important is the safety of the process and the integrity of the drug development as to the question of the fda, i'm not able to make any comment. i have not spoken about that what i know is that a safety committee, which is independent committee, independent from the company that reviews on a variable basis the data, our clinicians that are expert in clinical trial development for vaccines, i'm sure if they see anything that is worrying to them, they would put the trial on hold. >> mr. bancel, could you just go back to your earlier comments and clarify them when you say your base plan is october but you said it was unlikely but possible. also, why a slower infection

rate in the country this fall? what actually delayed the arrival of that vaccine until december >> let me clarify. our base plan, our most probable plan is november that's what we've been saying for many months. our best possible outcome would be october and the reason it depends on infection rates in the country is we are all running in the industry as perfect the guidelines efficacy trials. we're not looking for antibody levels in people's blood, it's, again, efficacy. for efficacy, 50% is placebo and 50% the real vaccine we are counting the case of disease. this is how the trial is designed it's sad to say but this is how clinical result goes we need people getting clinical disease to calculate how many people get the disease with the vaccine, how many people get the

disease on placebo to calculate the efficacy if they say they want at least a 50% efficacy in the vaccines to consider the vaccines for approval >> i thought you were following up, kelly. i had similar questions, stepha stephane you had said in the past there would be a placebo and a group getting a medicine, and sometimes the people getting the medicine show so much progress that it's no longer ethical to not allow the placebo the same treatment. is that possible that that could happen in this case or do the concerns you just outlined make it unlikely you would know that that quickly i'm talking about when you're offsetting safety against efficacy, i don't know if there's enough safety to end that is it possible this could end early or not >> that is a great question.

we do not know the efficacy of our vaccine, that is why we are doing a phase 3 study to know that if the vaccine has a very high efficacy, it is possible sometime in the process that the safety committee which sees all of the data and all the cases will determine that it is not ethical to keep going. we have people getting placebo, the elderly and not a younger adult. so much depends on the scientific data, but it is a possibility that of course our safety committee is ready to recommend it's the right thing to do for the participants >> stephane, it's meg again. i need to ask you about an issue people are focused on, executive stock sales at moderna in your most recent quarterly filing, you noted in order to avoid any distraction, you --

everybody has agreed not to enter into new 10b51 shares or engage in unscheduled shares of moderna stock in the market. tell us why you made that decision and as these criticisms mount, do people really make a differentiation between the sales and ones that are part of this as recently as a few days ago you and others on the executive team have had these scheduled stock sales so people keep seeing these mount up. why not stop them completely >> there's other considerations to be taken in stopping the plan as you know, this is highly regulated by the sec what we decided to do with the team and the goal in terms of not stopping the plan, phase 3 the safety committee, which is independent from the company has access to the data we don't know how many cases we have or how many we have i have not seen any as we

started those subjects, as it should be. just so there is no suspicion of wrongdoing, which would be possible, we just thought it would be better to put that in place. that's what we communicated in our sec filings. >> all right stephane balan stephane bancel, we'll be watching thanks for being with us this morning. >> thanks. >> back over to you. >> okay. thanks, meg. coming up, snowflake surging in its trading debut in the biggest software ipo ever, but is a big tech blizzard brewing? jon fort is joining us what it means for investors. before we head to break, we'll check on markets osu'll see we are down acrs the board. "squawk box" will be right back. , knowing we're prepared for the future. surprise!

we renovated the guest room, so you can live with us. i'm good at my condo. well planned, well invested, well protected. voya. be confident to and through retirement. it's the simple joy of washing your hands,. without ever touching a faucet. it's the little things that matter. that's why we create moments to feel kohler clean, every day. ♪ you should be mad your neighbor always wants to hang out. and you should be mad your smart fridge is unnecessarily complicated. make ice. making ice. but you're not mad because you have e*trade which isn't complicated. their tools make trading quicker and simpler so you can take on the markets with confidence. don't get mad get e*trade and start trading commission free today.

don't get mad get e*trade and start trading ♪ you can go your own way ♪ go your own way your wireless. your rules. only xfinity mobile lets you choose shared data, unlimited or a mix of each. and switch anytime so you only pay for the data you need. switch and save up to $400 a year on your wireless bill. with the carrier rated #1 in customer satisfaction. call, click, or visit your local xfinity store today.

welcome back priced at $120 a share, snowflake was going to be the biggest ipo ever then doubled is this a sign of a tech bubble. jon fortt is here. is it a bubble >> it's a bubble snowflake is trading more than 100 times analyzed revenue that's nuts. in a way, it doesn't seem that

surprising tesla was trading at a split adjusted 49 bucks a share a year ago. today it's almost 10 times that at 441 a share they're not making ten times more cars. look, it's not just two stocks, when you consider forecasted earnings, remember those, the s&p hasn't been more expensive in like 20 years i'm not picking on snowflake great company, great pedigree but ten years from now when we look back on this super weird time when a pandemic hit and tech stocks ignored reality, one of the prime examples is going to be the biggest ipos that doubled even when the ceo said he had no intention of making a profit any time soon. >> you can say it's 1999 all over again we were speaking with an analyst in the last hour and said maybe it can have a huge, 10, 100 x growth in a year. >> on the other hand, bubble is a strong word. we're not there yet. bubble suggests it's going to pop like the dotcom bust 20 years ago. sell all of your tech stocks and

run for the hills. let's think of reasons this is not that first of all, it's not that tech stocks are over valued a few big tech stocks have run up really high and are making entire indexes look expensive. second of all, you can argue snowflake's richly valued here at $70 billion this isn't pets.com. snowflake has more than 3100 customers including nearly 1/3 of the fortune 500 i know we're not supposed to say it's different this time, but the fed's releasing more doves than a southern wedding. they tried to sell us in 1999 and somehow there are four or five ridiculously incredible monster monopolies and snowflake sneaks up on them all, i'd say it's different this time. >> it's hard for me. i don't like you saying one and the other. i want to know which one tell me. tell me your answer. no i like the doves analogy john, thank you very, very much. jon fortt. andrew, over to you. >> thanks so much.

coming up when we return, joe biden presidency could change your tax bill we're going to debate the policy and tell you what it means for your money when "squawk" returns right after this we'll talk about some stocks to watch as well. time now for today's aflac trivia question. what running, jumping and climbing activity originated from a french special forces training course? the answer when cnbc's "squawk box" continues aflac! now tell me, what does aflac do? aflac pays you money directly to help with unexpected medical bills. and is aflac health insurance? no, but it can help with expenses health insurance doesn't cover! that's right. are there any questions? -coach! -yes? can i get one of those cool blue blazers? you know i can't play favorites. alright let's talk coverage. it's go time! get help with expenses health insurance doesn't cover. mmm hmm! get to know us at aflac.com

now the answer to today's aflac trivia question. what running, jumping, and climbing activity originated from a french special forces

training course? the answer, parkour. welcome back to "squawk box," everybody. we're watching shares of nikola this morning following a big turn around yesterday morning. stock up 15% from the interday low after a jpmorgan analyst suspended the company and reiterated his overweight rating nikola has been under huge pressure after a short sell over ford the shares this morning, they're down 1.5% premarkets trading a little under $33 a share. how about steeple betting on dave portnoy and betting a street high of $85 they expect the sports betting euphoria to continue through the fall portnoy and penn have a deal to launch the bar stool sports betting. penn national down 1% after being up 162% this year. it's at 67 dominos pizza has emerged as a top idea certainly been a top performer

they reiterated their outperform raised earnings estimates. the stock price is $435 a share up from 385 this morning when we return, we'll talk taxes with john hope bryant and kevin o'leary. we'll talk salt in particular. "squawk box" will be right back.

welcome back to "squawk box" this morning the futures, take a look this morning. red arrows across the board. dow opening down 208 points. s&p 500 down 34 points nasdaq down 168 points we'll show you treasury yields as we speak as well.

you're looking at the 10-year notoriety now at .667. let's take a quick look at what's going on in europe right now. we'll flip the board around for you so you can see what's going on across the 307pond as they sy red arrows there as well then we are watching airlines this morning we're now two weeks away from the end of that federal aid that prohibits job cuts that expire after september 30th airlines and labor unions are renewing calls for lawmakers to approve $25 million in payroll support. they could furlough 34 million people and another round of relief could protect jobs through the end of march joe? >> yes need that. until the end of march save those jobs. democratic presidential candidate joe biden and the democrats want to lift the cap on deductions for state and local taxes if elected, but the

battle over salt limits will be a complicated fight. it truly is, robert frank, who joins us with more it's got some strange bed partners on who wants to do that i mean it would certainly benefit rich people so i don't understand how that makes sense for the democratic ticket, robert. >> it's kind of the world of the upside down. democrats saying a repeal of the s.a.l.t. tax are a priority but a new analysis shows that even as they criticize the trump tax cuts as a gift to the wealthy, the proposed s.a.l.t. changes are even more tilted towards top earners. let's take a look. the 2017 tax cuts limited the amount of state and local taxes that taxpayers could deduct to $10,000. that hit high earners in cities and states the hardest if that were repealed, 96% of the benefits would go to the top quintile

57% of the benefits would go to the top 1% the top .1% would get an average tax cut of $145,000 if this were repealed compare that with the trump tax cuts where 20% of the benefits went to the top 1%, so the s.a.l.t. repeals would be three times more beneficial to the top earners on a distributional basis than the trump tax cuts themselves as christopher pulliam said at best, the s.a.l.t. deduction is a warped way to do social policy, at worst it is a politically motivated handout to the richest people either way, it is bad policy at a time of rising inequality. andrew, back to you. >> robert, we are going to take that and have a little bit of a debate right now what is the right tax policy at a time of increasing inequality. joining us now is kevin o'leary,

chairman at o shares, and john hope bryant who is also wonderful. john's book "up from nothing." comes out on october 6th we are thrilled to have both of them here with us. weigh in on this i'll start with you, kevin look at the s.a.l.t. issues, broader issues depending on who wins the white house in november what do you think the right answer is? let's start on the s.a.l.t. side >> there is only one answer that's correct the only way to deal with s.a.l.t., state and local tax deductibility, is not to allow to deduct at all because when you allow deductions of s.a.l.t., you are rewarding the inefficient mediocrity of states like new york, massachusetts, lots of other ones that don't know how to run their businesses

basically. you're hiding the fact that they're inefficient. so what i would rather do is say the king has no clothes, expose the fact that they are charging you way more and reward the states like florida and texas who do a much better job what's happening here, it's really boiling down to saying if you look at the services provided in texas versus what you get in new york city, they're practically identical and yet you pay 20% more for them in new york why? new york is poorly run i'm not trying to blame anybody or make this a partisan issue. the fact is when you do not allow deductbility, you force open the fact that some states just aren't doing a very good job. and that's the right way to do it i don't want to reward mediocrity and build inefficiency into it i want a healthy competition between every state, and if you have to charge a lot more to run your operation, maybe you should probably elect somebody who can do a better job. andrew, i remember you reporting

just a couple of years ago on the decision in jersey city for amazon to be basically kicked out of there 15,000 jobs. how do you think people think about that now with unemployment in jersey city over 9% maybe that was a mistake maybe the people that did that shouldn't be elected again and i'm not trying to be partisan about it. you need good policy and good policy is total transparency on tax and forcing everybody to realize that you charge more than 50% on personal tax and s.a.l.t.'s a big part of that. you get the law of diminishing returns. people in states that pay more than 50% tax eventually want to go to states where it's less it's that simple shine the light of transparency on it and don't play the game of deductibility anywhere. >> john, i gather you're on the other side of it. >> i'm very disappointed this morning. my middle name is hope. i thought kevin and i would be

on the same page of this the federal government, i have great respect for kevin, obviously, he's very smart the federal government is doing what he says he doesn't like, which is picking winners and losers you have, oddly enough, the high gdp states, which are throwing money into the federal treasury of a certain hue and they are -- tend to be urban and tend to be higher income and we have other states which if you have a $300,000, $400,000 house in that state, you have the same costs or carry burden as these states that i'm talking about in effect the federal government through this approach is disincentive advising those who live in these states which are contributing the most gdp, that have a higher local in state tax carry burden and incentivizing others unfairly.

i think we need to stop playing these political games. let me go to the issue that's close to my heart. i was hoping kevin and i would be on the same page on this. what i'm concerned is $150,000 family where you have a firefighter and teacher. together they make 75, 75, make $150,000 that family now has a $400,000 house in one of these so-called risk managed states in the gdp country, i don't know how that quite factors. they are getting hit over the head with a tax bill that is prohibiting them taking that extra $10,000 and send their kids to college, or starting a business, or having a safety fund, or saving for retirement and so you don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water. you can say, let's cap it at $20,000, cap it at $25,000 cap it at $50,000. you don't need to go that far. you cap it at $25,000, you take

the pressure off of the middle income family between 45 and $150,000 right now in the middle of this pandemic and we need -- we need the farm team here, andrew, to have as much girth and as much support as they can. the farm team is the middle class. 70% of this economy is consumer spending not rich people buying yachts. it's people buying refrigerators, micro waves and hopefully going to restaurants i have an idea how to increase revenue. we'll get that. >> kevin, take that on so i understand your view on that there is something to be said that the states are blue states, highest producing gdp states in the country. there may be a reason for that >> okay. let's take california. that's got the gdp of many countries around the world you have to argue that's a big economic engine. they're contemplating raising state tax to 15%

they would like to hide under the shield of deductibility to let you deduct that. i say, no. if you can't run the state in a way that's competitive, too bad. if you want to charge people 65% personal taxes, guess what they're going to move to texas they're going to take their businesses and put them into nevada that's my whole point. you're breeding mediocrity in policy you're breeding in efficiency. you're letting very weak managers continue to run those states how about firing them and hiring better people? that's way better and the way you do that is you force the light of transparency onto the fact that 65% tax is the law of diminishing returns. you've got to remember, there's pleasant bey of places around the world where this was tried back in the '60s they raised taxes to 90% in england, many entrepreneurs left. >> kevin, do you -- kevin, do you accept at all that, for example, the education system in

the state of california or, frankly, massachusetts or in new york or some of these other places may ostensibly oddly enough be better than what is offered in florida or texas? i know i'm going to get viewers who are going to be screaming about this, but i'm curious whether you think that's true forex ample? >> no, i don't think that's true in florida they have adopted far more aggressive campaigns around financial literacy, a cause close to my heart, where they start to teach kids in high school about debt and investing. we don't even do that yet in massachusetts or new york, so, no, i don't agree with you i spent my whole life in the education system, andrew there's 110,000 schools, the majority of them in new york, texas, florida, california i know exactly what the policies are and i'm not giving any one state better marks over the other. there's lots of good and bad everywhere my point be is shine the light of transparency on the fact that there's many mismanaged states you're in one of them. the taxes in new york including

state and city and federal are a joke no wonder so many people want to leave. the city's not run right the state isn't run right. and you add federal tax to it, and you're paying way more than 50%. how are you liking that, andrew? are you liking that. >> do you want to pay more >> it has to be one of the most successful cities in the world john, are you ready to jump in >> i want the cappuccino that kevin had this morning this reminds me of one of these interesting relationships where you love the person and he's like, i really love you, you're amazing, will you just calm down like breathe, right? it's not this serious. this is not a zero sum game. first of all, i was raised in california, kevin. i got my financial literacy course it was a banker that came in my classroom in compton who taught me financial literacy and said what a entrepreneur is i said if it's legal, i'm going

to be one. my wealthy friends that i talked to last week in california aren't packing up u-hauls to move out as much as they complain. no one is talking about enriching the top 1% we agree on that no one is talking about enriching the top 5% i gave you an example, a firefighter and a teacher making 150 grand, they're not swimming in riches. they need every break they can get, particularly right now. and that's -- and that's 50% of america, kevin i'm drinking the coffey you're drinking that's most of this country. knowing that they have a break, that's property tax and state and local income tax giving them something like effectively double taxation. i will also say, this tax we're talking about was created in 1913 it's been through a lot of bumps and it's still here. should we modernize it

absolutely should we get rid of it? why? >> i just want to address that people are making $150,000 to cap it >> three times and to your point and subsidized red states. and the states and go to red states >> one particular reason it's a tax of 75% and it's the worst place to be.

people are there and by appealing this it's a tax credit. more revenue or make money two ways it's okay for all-americans. on wall street and they're pressured to do things like s.a.l.t.

>> what are we expecting them to do >> before we end this, i wanted to have a 30 second quick thought. >> i was curious should the airlines get a bailout >> in addition, of course -- >> no more money, no more ppp. the fact is you have to let some of them go bankrupt. i don't mind giving that

75% of my companies are going to fail i'm sorry the world has changed. there is a transfer to the better managers. we've got to stop on the economy. raising taxes. from the top funnel all day. >> that was going to happen. >> what do you do? >> the airlines are going to attack this. in the middle of a pandemic.

2021, this is a pandemic this is like being at war. what we did with the marshall plan in the private sector. the marshall plan, that will be there. not be able to consume 25% of your company are going to go broke your stock market will go. >> gentlemen, we want to thank you for the debate we're going to leave the last word with john hope bryant i promise you, it was a fabulous conversation on both sides thank you, guys. >> hear, hear. still ahead after the break,

shares in the middle of the day. after the break we're watching shares of snowflake which more than doubled in the biggest ipo ever incredible story that's what my dad does. good job, michael! ok, lindsey now tell the class what your mommy does... my mom has super powers. it's like she can see the future. what?! it's like she time travels in a rocket ship. that's cool! and then she comes back saying "try this" or "try that." she helps everyone. she helps them feel less worried. wow! mommy, so what is it that you do? i'm a financial advisor. she is!

aig proudly supports all the professionals taking care of our financial futures.

a developing story with the airlines in the industry.

squawk news line the grounding. it's a temporary move. it essentially comes down to this it must be filled out. it's the wave of every aircraft. the forms and all of the regulations. the faa said we're going to fine

southwest airlines as a result, making sure that we are compliant. the grounding of these aircrafts would be pulling them out of service. >> so, phil, perhaps more sensitivity around the headline in a week. >> i do not think the stock is down

>> steadily higher perhaps they were doing that a little bit better affected southwest saying they're going to pull these 130 airplanes out of service. >> i do appreciate it. a decent week. >> speaking of the office, shares of office furniture builder. in the last quarter.

it's a sign of the time. [ thunder rumbles ] [ engine rumbling ] [ beeping ] [ engine revs ] uh, you know there's a 30-minute limit, right? tell that to the rain. [ beeping ] for those who were born to ride, there's progressive. a lot goes through your mind. with fidelity wealth management, your dedicated adviser can give you straightforward advice and tailored recommendations. that's the clarity you get with fidelity wealth management.

and tailored recommendations. ♪ you can go your own way ♪ go your own way your wireless. your rules. only xfinity mobile lets you choose shared data, unlimited or a mix of each. and switch anytime so you only pay for the data you need. switch and save up to $400 a year on your wireless bill. with the carrier rated #1 in customer satisfaction.

call, click, or visit your local xfinity store today. welcome back to "squawk box. futures are a little over 200 points on the dow. kind of a weird reaction today to the fed the averages, tech sold off. the s&p closed lower we're extending those losses whether it's related to fed, been a pretty good run recently.

anyway, commercial real estate stocks are bouncing back this week after taking a big hit. shares of s.l. green, manhattan's biggest office landlord are up 14 perfection percent a -- 14%. on monday s.l. green unveiled a $3 billion 7 story new office tower in midtown betting on a future that bets on workers going back into the city andrew mathias, you've got to have faith we'll play that song, andrew new york always bounces back, but, i mean, if you had known, if you could have predicted what was going to happen in 2020, the planning for this tower was long in coming, would you have still -- would it have made sense to still do it, do you think? i guess so, right? >> absolutely. this is -- this is a 20-year effort to assemble this site,

move 200 tenants out of the buildings, rezone the entire area, all of east mid town and then construct a building for five years so it takes 20 years to deliver an asset in this kind of location in new york city and we think in the context of 20 years this period will be a blip in history. >> you know what i thought of, andrew, when you were opening it, and it is -- i mean, you probably got a little teary and probably your chest swelled a little bit because it's an amazing fete, it's a beautiful building -- >> thank you very much >> -- it kind of reminded me of w throwing out that pitch, right? there's little moments like that opening this is -- makes you feel better about new york city and that eventually it's going to be the greatest city in the world. it still is, but, you know, we've been beaten down a lot >> we really -- we think so. we've seen a noticeable uptick

in people since labor day. tenants are getting in touch with us returning to the office which has been a critical next step in the recovery of the city and when we cut the rub bon on monday, it felt like a new beginning. this is, you know, a statement project for the city and for our company and for this area, for east midtown, which is the commercial center of the greatest city in the world >> i don't want to throw cold water on this, but you look at the actual numbers of what's happening and it's bad, right? i mean, 21% drop in advertised rent for new listing that's worse than what happened in the financial crisis. leases you know, obviously year over year they're going to be down. are you seeing at least a second derivative improvement in what's going down is stooping going down as quickly? >> sure. we had a quiet summer, as did

everybody, and we had an uptick. we never had the dynamic where tenants aren't physically in their office when they get back in their office, we think we'll see leasing uptick significantly there is still demand. tenent's office-based decision are often long lead time items they're not planning for the next six-month year. we've seen an uptick in activity and we think we'll build on that momentum going into the fall >> so, andrew, i mean, this is "the post" today i have a kid at home that's doing this that's what -- he's older than this kid, but that's what he looks like sitting at that computer all day long. he tells me -- i had a meeting the other day. i had to be on a computer getting some kind of training. i was an hour and 20 minutes i didn't know if i was going to be able to survive are people at homeworking like

these kids are they craving to get back into the office and interact with their co-workers or do people feel good about being at home >> we heard a lot of that feedback within our own company, that people wanted to return to the office we've been fully back at work since june since the mayor gave the green light to return to offices. and we've had great feedback from our employees nothing replaces the creativity and the sbrinteractions you experience in the office we're a work from work company, not a work from home company we've heard the same thing from our tenants. they're saying, it's just not the same i don't have the same productivity i need to get my people back to the office we've been working with the other real estate companies trying to encourage that you're starting to hear the words from the mayor this week about understanding the importance of getting businesses back to work >> yes. >> the importance for the local economy, for the restaurants, for the small businesses there's a whole ecosystem out there that needs tenants in

their offices to thrive. >> we've got to go, but longer than we think or shorter five years three years? one year what do you think before we're -- >> shorter shorter. we're a long-term asset class and we think shorter -- you know, we see major green chutes out there already and we think it will continue. >> our mutual friend robert big loan verrone says all of your success comes from him. >> it's jersey strong, joe it's jersey strong. >> andrew, thank you like i said, good luck we're supposed to be objective, but we're pulling for you. >> come back to your offices we're waiting for you. i'm here i'm here >> it's safe, it's secure. we're ready. >> preaching to the choir. >> thank you. >> toss it over to this andrew. >> the other andrew. good name. good name. coming up enwh we return,

the latest on tiktok the newest on the deal between the app -- ♪ (vo) while you may not be running an architectural firm, tending hives of honeybees, and mentoring a teenager -your life is just as unique. a raymond james financial advisor gets to know you, your passions, and the way you help others. so you can live your life. that's life well planned.

good morning stock futures well into the red this morning that's a change from every other day this week at this hour major averages turned around yesterday even as the fed pledged to halt interest rates steady for years president trump not ready to give his blessing to a plan to make oracle a tech partner for tiktok that's the latest. we will bring you more on that saga coming up. the year's hottest ipo, snowflake, sizzling in the

debut. did the cloud hit on the best possible idea at the best possible time or are tech stocks snowballing out of control the final hour of "squawk box" begins right now. good morning and welcome to "squawk box" here on cnbc. i'm joe kernen along with andrew ross sorkin and kelly evans. becky is off today andrew, did you ever think how close sizzle is to fizzle. i thought i heard you say fizzle but you said sizzle. it's the perfect choice of words for an ipo they either sizzle or fizzle in this case, it was a sizzle. u.s. equity futures, fizzling at

this hour. s&p down 40, dow down 240, nasdaq down on a percentage basis worse than what we're seeing treasury yields, we talk about them i guess we need to with the fed and everything else. >> keeps slipping. >> oh, boy uh-oh. that's like the omen anyway -- boy, that was on -- remember >> .666. >> right where his could you cowlick was. it was there mark of the beast. all right. sorry, but we digress again, kelly. it's only 8:02 we have time >> we'll come back to yields, stocks, the disappointment about the fed and all of that. two of the biggest stories off the bat. leslie pickers is here to talk about snowflake sizzling and eamon javers talks about the latest on tiktok and avoiding a

ban in the u.s is anybody satisfied with what we've heard so far on this deal? >> reporter: yeah, kelly, pretty much not yesterday at the beginning of the day we thought, you know, this deal might be on track for approval by the white house based on some of the signals we've been hearing from the administration yesterday the president came out before cameras and said, no, not yet. he's not ready to approve a deal he wants it to be 100% in terms of national security he's concerned about the idea that oracle would only be a minority shareholder in the combined company and, therefore, the chinese entity, bytedance, would still have a majority of control. he also said amazingly, he said, he found out from u.s. lawyers that he's not allowed to charge a transaction fee to the participants in this deal. that's something he said was important to him. >> when i said what kind of a thing is this. if they're willing to make big payments to the government, they're not allowed because

there's no way of doing that from -- there's no legal path to doing that we're looking into that now. how foolish can this be. you understand that. i want a big chunk of that money to go to the united states government >> reporter: the president said the important thing here is security in terms of chinese access to american data. guys, he was following up really on some comments by a number of republican senators who had looked at the oracle perspective and said if this doesn't get us here, if national security and access to millions of people's data still having control really doesn't solve the problem. that seems to be what the president was responding to. we'll see where we go from here. >> eamon, let's talk about the majority control for a moment. what had been proposed would be a minority interest as far as we understand it.

if washington wants to get them above majority control, they actually purportedly don't have far to go. bytedance has a 40% u.s. ownership interest in this already. so you throw in maybe a walmart, you throw in an oracle you can get over that line then the administration said 50% might not even be enough you know, i just wonder if this is going to come down to people in a room, you know, sort of debating percentages and what the practical implications of this cobbled together majority interest if it is, indeed -- if it comes out that way is going to be. >> well, look, as everybody in business notion, it might just be a couple of percentages but there's a big difference between owning 49% of a company and 51% of a company that gives you the control presumably the theory is on the u.s. side the chinese government, if the chinese entity has majority control, they'll be getting access to that data. remember, chinese law requires chinese companies to turn over data to the government if they're requested. they don't have a choice about

that really. if they have majority control, they can enforce that. we'll see where we go from here, kelly. it's not clear where the deal is going to land. the president said he's going to get a briefing and report today. that's from sifius the official deadline was september 20th so presumably there are a couple of days left in order to hammer something out. it's very much a moving target. >> it's interesting, eamon it seemed like it had momentum, all of these parties were interested now all of a sudden it seems to be falling apart is there a chance the whole thing falls through and tiktok gets banned in the u.s.? >> reporter: that's certainly one scenario you're absolutely right about the momentum we were getting scenarios earlier in the week and jim cramer talked about it on our air that this was coming close to approval. i've heard from administration officials that there was a chance we could get a decision even earlier in the week than

where we're standing right now it seemed to be on a fast track and then something happened and that fast track was broken i think that one of the keys is those republican senators coming out and saying this deal isn't good enough. president trump doesn't want to be sort of the moderating force on this, the guy in the middle he wants to be the guy with the strongest position in the united states on this he wants to show politically that he's being tough on china. >> eamon, thank you very much. we'll leave it there andrew thank you. meantime, want to go now to leslie picker on snowflake's massive day. yesterday's events proved just how broken the ipo process is. leslie >> reporter: that's right. the cynics pointing to snowflake's shares jumping 120%. for investors, that's fantastic news for snowflake, that equates to almost $4 billion left on the table. if the ipo were priced higher

snowflake could have had $4 billion more in proceeds to play with even snowflake ceo frank slutman was surprised by the market reaction yesterday >> as frosty and as -- as it looks, this is just a hot deal and, you know, we will just have to sort of live with the consequences of that >> reporter: that $4 billion opportunity costa pierce to be the largest forany company that has gone public in at least 12 years since visa's ipo this dynamic caught the attention of venture capitalist bill gurley. he tweeted, quote, in many ways snow is the final proof of just how broken the ipo process is. and, guys, some high profile mispricings have encouraged several unicorns to try alternative methods to becoming public opendoor went public by merging into a blank check shell entity. software provider unity is using

a digital bidding system to figure out its ipo price and next year palantir and asana will become the third and fourth companies to go public via a direct listing, guys >> hey, leslie, in terms of the underwriters of the snowflake transaction, what kind of finger pointing is going on in all of this right now >> so in terms of mispricing, the finger pricing always goes towards the underwriters in saying, you know, you could have priced that. you could have been more aggressive in this case the lead underwriters were morgan stanley, goldman sachs there's an interesting dynamic this float was small when you see these tiny floats and they had berkshire hathaway and salesforce coming in which shrank the float even smaller, the supply and demand are difficult to calculatewhen you have a tiny float, when you're only selling a small portion of the company, in this case less than 10%, you do tend to see a

pop because it's easier to fill that demand side of the equation and then there's also the question mark surrounding retail investors as well. they're kind of the unknown. it's difficult to assess demand because they're a disparate group of people as opposed to institutional investors. i think that was one part of the equation in yesterday's rise yesterday. >> leslie, i'm less sympathetic in part because i don't think goldman sachs and morgan stanley are turning their fees back. when it came to the fees related to his spac, you get an example of a company getting paid to do something. not part of -- that is what you're getting paid to do, price the ipo. by all accounts you have failed one way or the other and there's a bit of a heads you win, tails

you win situation for the underwriter and not necessarily for the company or necessarily for the shareholders involved in it >> so that's truex september the underwriters would have made more in fees if the ipo was double the size because they take a gross spread off of each share sold they would have made more. that said, there's always the argument that by getting that first day pop they're definitely pleasing their institutional clients that have seen their money double in this investment in one day. >> no, there's no question the institutional investor, it's good for the banks but not necessarily good for the balance sheet, snowflake leslie, thank you. appreciate it very, very much. >> thank you >> founding partner of wing venture.

seven years smarter than berkshire hathaway you've creed companies i guess that's how you figure this stuff out maybe you can explain how to all of this today. >> there were a number of contrarian ideas unleashing relational technology a lot of people thought that wouldn't be possible what you just mentioned, we're all the rage snowflake founders felt that they could harness the power of the cloud in a way that wasn't

obvious to really create a new generation of enterprise analytics. i think history has shown them to be correct. >> that was funny. in your notes it reminded me of a joke that economists tell you. you talk about a fun joke or interaction between the snowflake ceo back then and the co-signer of the new company and i guess i don't get the joke, but they had a big argument and going back and forth and people in the know thought it was really clever. it's very arcane to try to understand what's happening. the bottom line is you think companies like this grow into the valuation that has manifested early on and that's the only way you can own them is to, you know, bite the bullet, buy with a crazy 100 time revenue valuation and then wait around for something good to happen and it does in your view? >> well, sometimes it's easy to under estimate the

long-term potential of the two platform companies in our industry and that really is the opportunity that's so exciting about snowflake is it is our industry's first true data cloud, which is an enormously powerful concept the modern enterprise is built on data and powered by ai. the data cloud and cloud data platform are the most strategic players that's enabling this transformation in business that's the potential and, you know, now that it's become visible, there's a lot of people that want to be part of that i mean, there is another way to own this, which is to work with the founders when they're just starting the company and that's obviously how we got involved. just a quick correction to something you said at the beginning. while we participated in the seed financing and all the financing since, mike spizer, tremendous critic. >> i was reading stuff about him as well. that may be where -- one thing i

quoted you on earlier, the pandemic has accelerated a move to the cloud by five to ten years and someone earlier said maybe one or two years make your case for why you believe that to be true, five to ten years. >> sure. the enterprise is transforming and it's transforming in all layers the technology that it runs on the types of applications that it uses. the way that its people work together and the pandemic accelerated some trends like remote work, which we're dealing with right now during this broadcast, but it accelerated a lot of fundamental trends, too, surrounding the cloud. and it's really pushed enterprises towards cloud adoption and snowflake is certainly a great example of a company that benefits from that. but, you know, this was going on anyway this is really one of the fundamental trends of our generation i think it's a five to ten-year

profile because i think it was already emerging consensus within enterprise i.t. as well as new companies being born in the cloud that this was the only way to go. the pandemic really created a burn the boats moment that forced that shift to happen. >> hey, peter -- >> yeah. >> -- hey, peter, just curious given the conversation we're having about the pop in price earlier, if you had hired morgan stanley and goldman sachs and paid them millions of dollars in fees, would you be happy with the service they provided yesterday? >> clearly a lot of discussion there and a lot of people, including my colleague, bill gurley, have studied and spoken on this topic. i think it's more an art than a science. from a snowflake point of view, we're quite happy to be successful publicly traded company right now. the company achieved its goals i think, you know, the stockholders certainly, you

know, have opportunities now in front of them and, you know, whether we look back and say the process should have been done differently is -- you know, it's very hard to say for a bunch of the factors that you got into before this segment. >> so you're going to stick with this enterprise stuff i guess. you can call me next time you think something's going to be big, you know what i'm saying, like plastics or something it's still going to be enterprise stuff, right? you're going to stick with this? more to do >> we're all about the enterprise and this whole development of modern enterprise that's what the firm was founded to help. so that's what we do >> well, we'll have you back interesting. i'd like to know a lot more but i said earlier, i saw a google video on how to understand haduk and it was only 10 hours supposedly i'd be really good at it by then should i do that ly want my ten hours back or

what do you think? >> i think the world has moved on from -- >> okay. >> -- haduk. >> there's other things to study. >> i don't want to hear from claudia. >> not even the cutting edge ten hours -- >> i'm finally figuring it out i'm finally figuring it out and the world has moved on that's the story of my life. >> mine, too. we'll talk about the fed, the impact on investors and the economy. if there are no rate hik in es three years. you're watching "squawk box" on cnbc every curve, every innovation, every feeling. a product of mastery. lease the 2020 es 350 for $359 a month for 36 months. experience amazing at your lexus dealer. to deliver your packages. and the peace of mind of knowing that important things like your prescriptions, and ballots, are on their way. every day, all across america, we'll keep delivering for you.

every day, all across america, ♪ if i could, baby i'd ♪ how can i, when you won't take it from me ♪

♪ you can go your own way ♪ ♪ go your own way your wireless. your rules. only with xfinity mobile. welcome back to "squawk box. the top stocks on the move this morning. frank holland joins us frank. >> good morning to you, andrew

let's start with nikola. shares down 2% they were up 3% earlier in the pre-market following a big turn around shares spiked 15% from an interday low after jpmorgan reiterated the low rate ranking. shares have been under a lot of pressure after a short sell report accused the company of fraud. turning to match group the owner of hinge and tinder down raising to a street high of 151 a share, the stock closed at 108. morgan stanley seeing a potential for hinge to grow at half a million to 8 million saying the app is a step up from tinder and quickly becoming a premium dating sight now turning to facebook. shares down more than a percent and a half following a one day boycott all taking a stand against hate on the site all the faang names trading

lower on antitrust or regulatory action kelly? >> thank you, sir. frank holland. the fed meantime is pledging to support the country's economic recovery meaning rock bottom rates through at least 2023. steve liesman is here with more. we should add this morning as we discuss this, dow jones down more pointing fingers back to this move it may be a little bit of a lack of clarity curious what jumps out to you 12 hours later. >> i think that's an important play just a second, kelly let's talk about the incredible dovish part. it made history saying for the first time in the statement that its policy is to seek inflation above 2% for a time hoping to average out low inflation back up to the 2% target. here are the main things that happened explicitly aiming for 2% inflation. forecasts no rate hikes through 2023 it links policy changes to

economic outcomes for the first time and gives an upgrade to the economic forecast. fed chair powell pointed out we're well below the levels of january. comparing the three year forecast from 2016 to 2019 shows how the policy role has changed dramatically back in 2016 they expected unemployment in 2019 to be 4.5%. they expected similar inflation rate but they forecast a 3% funds rate very similar conditions now forecast for 2023 except in those conditions they now forecast a 0% funds rate they declined to offer any additional new policy to achieve the goal of raising inflation above 2% that might have been something the market keyed on. morgan stanley writing, quote, we were left with the impression of a higher bar of qe. the fed is doing $120 billion a month. some expecting more. fed officials themselves don't think they can get it above 2%

it shows inflation does not hit 2% until 2023. and never exceeds it all of that, kelly, could mean low rates even beyond 2023 >> you'd say to people, how could you possibly think this is hawkish. i thought morgan stanley's point is the same thing. those who are looking to receive clear dovish guidance on how the new targeting framework will operate were left hanging. kind of the same for the kashkari dissent >> i kind of described it as a captain who said, we're not getting there fast enough. what we're going to do is we're going to raise our intended speed, but i'm not touching the throttle so the fed offered this idea of a higher inflation target but didn't do anything right now to get there faster. >> they're saying, we don't think you're ever going to have the confidence to touch the throttle our steve liesman. joe, over to you. >> all right, kelly.

thank you. coming up, a slew of that -- i think in this case a couple of slews are really coming of data on the way at the bottom of the hour we'll have it all. couldn't fit iin at ll one slew. you're watching "squawk box" on cnbc ♪ ♪ ♪ good job, michael! does.

ok, lindsey now tell the class what your mommy does... my mom has super powers. it's like she can see the future. what?! it's like she time travels in a rocket ship. that's cool! and then she comes back saying "try this" or "try that." she helps everyone. she helps them feel less worried. wow! mommy, so what is it that you do? i'm a financial advisor. she is! aig proudly supports all the professionals taking care of our financial futures. coming up on the other side of the break, jobless claims, housing starts, breaking economic data. "squawk" returns with that and more when we retn.ur

everyone wakes up every morning to a world that must keep turning. the world can't stop, so neither can we. because the things we make, help make the world go round. they make it cleaner, healthier, and more connected. it's what we build that keeps things moving forward. so with every turn, we'll keep building a world that works.

back to "squawk box" on cnbc about 30 seconds away from a host of economic data, including

weekly jobless claims and also housing starts remember, we had a super strong home builder confidence yesterday. futures are under pressure after the fed decision yesterday rates are moving lower as well main point, bank of england held rates steady had a weak outlook maybe that's dragging us all a little bit to the down side here rick santelli at the cme with the numbers. rick >> oh, boy here we go well, on initial jobless claims we're expecting a number around 850,000. darn close to the 860, 860 on initial claims 12,628,000 so, indeed, under the expected 13 million mark as for starts, well, starts is a really fascinating number because on starts we have 1.416

million seasonally adjusted annualized units this is a rare miss for the housing industry that's down a little bit over 5% we are expecting a number much closer to 1.5 million and on the permanent side, also a miss. 1.470 seasonally adjusted annualized units that follows 1.483 so that makes that another down number then finally if we consider all the issues of the day, probably the biggest issue in front of us right now, of course, is digesting the fed. kelly, you mentioned the bank of england. not only are they hinting about negative rates, they have researchers and regulators looking into how to implement them this is not a very good sign they need to be more observant for the fed, i'll give you one analogy. you think if you owned a large grocery store or large department store, if you had one day sale only versus the next advertising campaign on sale for 600 days, which one do you think

would do more business i think the fed by giving us a discount on stimulus and low rates for a long window is taking all the incentive for action out of the economy in a way it's not questioning policy, it's kind of questioning guidance >> yeah. >> back to you >> they're relying on language more than ever interesting point. rick, thank you very much. stay right there let's also bring our own diana olick and steve liesman into this and joe taranova from virtue partners. he's a cnbc contributor. i want to hear from diana on this housing data which was a miss on jobless claims, steve, what should we know >> reporter: i mean, you just have to ask yourself why are 860,000 americans down a little bit but not a whole lot. why are they still filing for unemployment claims? there could be some bureaucratic issues we know there are some concerns

about fraud in the pandemic which is separate from the regular claims, but it makes me continue -- continues to make me nervous about what's happening in the economy here, an economy that should be reopening, an economy that's seven months into the beginning of this virus, we're still having numbers that are above any peak week in the 2008 crash i was just looking at where that was coming from. if you'll give me a second, i'll look at the screen here but, you know, california has a strong number georgia, 42,000. louisiana, 15,000. new york, 62,000 the concern i have, kelly, is that you had one set of layoffs and claims that was linked to -- that were linked to the shutdowns and now i think you're seeing perhaps some deep scarring in the economy that belies some of the other data that showed the economy recovering faster. we still have this nagging and

troublesome large, large number of claims. >> yeah. we're looking through this maybe louisiana a little bit of a storm effect california and new york, rick has his own opinions about why those are lagging a little bit rick >> reporter: yeah, i mean, come on, you have governors that barely opened or partially opened how can you not expect the states where governors are dragging their feet. i'm not saying for good reason or bad reason, i'm just calling it from a market perspective if you're not open, you're not going to work. if you're not flying, you're not going to work. there's a lot of things going on here, steve, that have nothing to do with scarring in the economy. i think many people would like to get off the ranks of jobless claims but they don't have the opportunity. >> texas, 49,000 49,000 in texas. 17,000 in michigan nevada, 10,500. >> the big states. california, new york those are the ones to look at. >> yeah, this week but you still have this very --

i mean, if you're saying -- >> we're talking about this week. >> -- the continued shutdown -- i'm saying just last week there were high numbers as well in those other states, rick if you're saying it's the shutdown, i guess i'll go with you on it. i think there's -- >> no, no, what i'm saying is if we're going to blame an entity, you're saying, oh, my god, it's just horrible, the economy really sucks, and i'm saying that isn't what's holding it back it's all the 16 pound bowling balls tied around the economy with regard to who can go back and who can't go back. >> maybe, and i'll grant you that that's a big part of what's happening, rick, but i also think there's another dynamic that's happening you stopped on the unemployment claim additional assistance in august you stopped on ppp you know you had some employers, rick, that held on to their employees because of ppp that's gone. and what i worry about, rick,

i'm not saying this is true, rick, i'm not saying this is true, what i'm simply saying here is that there are some companies that may have given up and have decided to close and let their employees go in the absence of further assistance or -- >> oh, i agree with that i completely agree. >> because their businesses don't look viable in this new economy. that's my concern. >> let me bring in diana here, first, joe, before i turn to you for some market context about all of this. diana, housing has been absolutely the bright spot, the standout some are riding their entire hopes for the rest of the economy on the housing sector. miss last month on new home construction what do you make of it >> reporter: well, it was a miss, kelly, on the overall number, but you have to remember this number divides out into single family versus multi-family the miss was all on the multi-family side. that's where we saw the surge in july we have single family housing starts, which is what the

economy needs more, more single family homes you have those up 4 percent m% o month and single family permits up 12% month to month. the builders are up against constraints for land, materials. stuart miller from lennar said they're having to slow some of their production because they don't want to get caught building in these very hilum ber prices, which are up 170% since last april they are slowing construction but still building i'm seeing this as a positive. single family are up month to month and year over year multi-family, we need it some but not quite as much. it's a very volatile month-to-month number. strong last month, not as strong this month that brought the overall number down i'll also note that some of the weakness was in the south, and we've had obviously a lot of weather issues in the south. south is a big area for

construction we did see very positive numbers in the west. fires probably affecting some of those areas. we're still seeing good construction out in the west the northeast has a small number very volatile month to month that brought some of the numbers down as well this is a positive even though the overall number seems to be a miss. >> the lumber pricing is crazy a carpenter told me one single 2x4 is $6, it used to be $2. $6 i can't imagine scaling it up to a whole house. joe, let me turn to you. we see futures up. little more weak jentd sinenedwd what diana said about the housing may put an asterisk on that would you attribute this to the fed? what do you make of the nasdaq's weakness and the fact that it kind of can't get its feet under it >> this has been since september 4th. the nasdaq is experiencing about

a 10% decline. there's a relaxation in the overconcentration of growth and megacap growth and the nasdaq is pushing towards 50 day moving average. i think it's being utilized as a source of funds. i think right now, kelly, the markets are looking at the economic picture and the numbers that are being reported today and if there is any form of discomfort as it relates to the economic figures, it can be quickly assuaged by policy makers in d.c. by coming to the table and providing more fiscal stimulus markets up until the point of september were really not concerned about this absence of fiscal stimulus. they expected you would get it now we're reaching a point knowing that the house potentially leaves on october 2nd, the senate leaves on october 9th. markets want that fiscal stimulus any form of economic weakness i think can be rectified quickly. >> that said, joe, mark meadows

did float this idea in a memo that the president would support a trillion and a half dollars stimulus they didn't have much reaction to it. what does that tell you? >> that's perception versus reality. and i think markets at this point have had several experiences of perception. they want the reality now of actual fiscal stimulus to be implemented. when you have 40% of the s&p, which is categorized as growth stocks under pressure as they have been since the early part of september being utilized as a source of funds, you're going to need a very large catalyst understand, kelly, we're just coming into earnings season. there's not very much can restart the momentum here for the nasdaq growth stocks i think, by the way, that the momentum will restart. this is a pause that ultimately will refresh itself. but the market needs some form of catalyst and clearly the

actual fiscal stimulus being agreed on could be that catalyst. >> that makes sense they want it signed, sealed, delivered basically. one more follow up to you, joe it's about snowflake if you're saying growth stocks are under pressure and this whole thing, that's great but why is the ipo market then this rocket fuel growth area? i mean, are they taking funds out of big cap existing tech stocks to put them into these new issues >> no. so, kelly, let me say, i am by no means negative on the overall market as i said, this is a pause that refreshes, but on august 21st, rather, the s&p 500 elevated above the february 19th all-time high at 3393 we went parabolic. we went vertical up to 3588. every so often when you have a significant over concentration, you need to contract that, and i think that's the experience of

what's occurring right now in the marketplace. the funds that are being sold out of some of these megacap growth names, they're not going towards cash and taxable fixed income, they're going into the municipal bond market, investment grade, high yield in the equities market i'll point out you're seeing over the last month some strength in materials. materials are up 5%. real estate making a little bit of a comeback and certainly industrials are trading very strong here month to date they're up 2%. >> yeah. no very encouraging you hope, again, it's kind of this whole idea of this reopening rotation we'll see. thank you all for a great discussion this morning. rick, diana, steve, joe t. joe k. >> joe k the project that ford's working on that could be the make or break element for its electric vehicle plans. i'm going to tell you what it is right after the break. here are the stocks leading the s&p lower in the pre-market

as the dow has some of the worst lows stay tuned, you're watching "squawk box" on cnbc ♪ ♪ i keep working my way back to you, babe ♪ ♪ with a burning love inside ♪ yeah i'm working my way back to you, babe ♪ ♪ and the happiness that died ♪ i let it get away servicenow. the smarter way to workflow. i appreciate what makes each person unique. that's why i like liberty mutual. they get that no two people are alike and customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need.

almost done. what do you think? i don't see it. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

welcome back to "squawk box. the futures right now are -- well, they've improved since we went to break. we're down 300 still down 297 points. nasdaq indicated down well over 200 points s&p could be closing in on a 50-point downturn once the market opens we'll see. andrew >> meantime, ford racing to roll out an all electric f-series pickup truck to that end it's working on a brand new ev final assembly line in michigan and phil lebeau joins us with the details as ford details its details here as it tries to get production up and running. >> reporter: andrew, big day for ford we're going to talk about the ev assembly line that they're building at the rouge assembly plant.

first, let me show you the teaser images that ford has just released regarding the all electric f-150 this is scheduled to come out in 2022 and, again, these are just teaser images at this point. we don't have specs. we don't have anything else we can say this is what the capabilities will be for this truck but ford has high hopes for the all electric f150. these are the first teaser images it looks similar to the current f 150. you can bet there will be differences between it and the current combustion today the company is announcing it's going to be seeking $700 million adding 300 new jobs as they build an all electric f-150 line a new assembly line right here at the rouge assembly complex. the rouge. this goes back to the roots. the very beginning of the ford company and as a result of them adding in these 300 new jobs,

$700 million investment, this is the transition into the future of electric vehicle manufacturing. speaking of electric vehicles from ford, don't forget that the mustang mach e, a lot of people are saying, i want to see this i want to get in this. i want to drive it it's supposed to be 0 to 60 in less than 4 seconds. highly anticipated vehicle they're in the midst of an $11 billion restructuring trying to make that pivot into electric vehicles and an assembly line dedicated to all electric vehicle. this is part of that transition. >> hey, phil, before we let you go, from automobiles to planes in this case given you're an expert in both. >> reporter: yeah. >> we got a news alert, delta airlines announcing its debt

offering plan with the sky miles subsidiary was up sized to $9 billion. i can tell you what it means it's good news for delta what does it mean -- >> you and i both know what this means. they added another term loan facility, $3 billion, 2.5, $3 billion going from 6.5 up to $9 billion. cash is king and it will be king over the next 18 to 24 months for the airlines delta -- we've seen this from all the airlines delta and the rest of the airline industry, they want to have as much liquidity as possible as they ride out the next 18 to 24 months >> right. >> remember, they're still burning through, what, 25, $27 million a day. they're not going to be down to break even in the first quarter and that's if things go as planned. >> phil, but i think the bigger question maybe this morning as a result of this, we've been having a debate all morning about whether the taxpayers should ultimately be subsidizing

the airlines. >> right. >> whether there is a private market or not. it appears in delta's case there is a private market. >> yes. >> the question is is there a private market solution, if you will, for the other airlines >> i think so. i think when you look at what the airlines are doing, what you're ultimately getting at, andrew, is this question of how much can these guys borrow take a company like american airlines that has borrowed $41 billion. how much further can you leverage up this company now delta has far less debt than american airlines, but that's ultimately the question there, and i think a lot of people thought, look, when they first went through the first round of borrowing back in the spring they thought, okay, there's a little bit more room now after this next one where you see delta, where you see other airlines like united leveraging their frequent flyer programs, the question becomes what other assets are still there and how much further can they go in terms of borrowing. there's still some room there.

>> all right okay phil lebeau, always appreciate it thank you, sir >> you bet >> andrew, i was thinking the exact same thing. >> kelly, over to you. >> to be clear, has the taxpayer already taken a steak in the airlines or no do we have any exposure? >> well, look, there are these warrants that were included in the original program, the big question now is if they're going to take additional money which of course they say some of them say they need and you've had a number of union members, pilots and the like come on and say please, you know, dear congress, you know, give us a loan the question is do they need the loan is there a private market that can accept it? and should taxpayers take any deal that's less -- that's anything less than what the private markets are doing right now? >> i want -- it could be better than the thanks, you know, after the financial crisis if we got some sort of exposure.

any way, coming up we will get jim cramer's first take on the markets as we watch futures with the dow down about 300 points for the open i just got a slue of economic data more or less better than expected, housing sort of the asterisk but it was all multi-family stay tuned, you're watching "squawk box" on cnbc

let's get to cnbc headquarters, jim cramer joins us now jim, we've seen tesla, we've

seen faang, we've seen the nasdaq, we've seen tech, we've seen bankrupt companies where the stock is worth $9, we've seen lots of manifestations of what could be froth. is this a whole new level that we saw yesterday in your view. >> yes. >> in snowflake? >> it is i think that the amount of money that the institutions had to spend to be able to get their second half of snowflake after they got their first part on the ipo is very little discipline. 100 times sales for, yes, frank slootman who i regard as one of the greatest managers, one of the greatest ceos, very humble man, but 100 times is asking too much for any one company and shows that the price discipline for buyers is nil. >> okay. >> and that does not bode well. >> buyers are going to do what they're going to do. what about the ipo process itself is that flawed and what do you mean in some of your tweets this morning that there's so much --

not enough money, too much chasing this you say >> i think that people want to buy a company that sells 100 times sales, some of these momentum funds to do that they have to sell the companies that have 50 times sales and 40 and 30 and 20, we are seeing all of that that's taking place right now, they're still trying to raise the money. these funds do not have enough money on hand to be able to pay the price that they did in the open market for snowflake. what's happened here it's not a flaw of what foreman and morgan stanley does, it's a flaw on what some of these institutions are willing to pay the fact that nobody dropped out, the big sellers didn't just come up and say, listen, you can have every share, i think salesforce must have tried to sell everything it had and had a quick double why would anyone do this these institutions have lost discipline get ready, there are going to be so many deals as everyone out in the valley is going to say they're giving money away, we have to get some this is a true struggle for the bull market because supply can

easily, easily tamp demand when it just gets too aggressive. we will see so much supply we saw chewy's secondary today okay you have to find somebody who is willing to quickly put money to work in chewy. i don't know who is going to do that who wants to do that right now there's going to be more like that. >> are these the same people that were in hertz are there barstool people? >> no, i don't think -- no the barstool people, i had penn national on, the barstool people are not like this. this is actually the professionals. the professionals snow frank sloolt man from what he did at service now and the professionals know the cloud and the fact that they didn't just say, do you know what, we are going to let this one pass after we got our niche allocation shows me that they just will pay anything and what they should -- what they usually say is, hey, listen, we got some on the allocation that was at $120. what does it matter, we paid $240 for the rest we end up getting a good average

that's shameful. every etf will have to own it. that's going to cause more selling. we will have to deal with this overhang for days. i actually tell you that the robin hood, penn national, barstool people they are not as foolish as the people who pay 100 times sales. >> we will see you at 9:00 and hear more. just a couple minutes away andrew >> thanks so much. meantime a couple stocks for you to keep an eye on as we count down to the markets this morning. joining us is sandy brager good morning to you. before we get started, comment on what jim cramer said in terms of where you think the markets are given this ipo we just saw yesterday. i mean, how wild are things and how much are you worried or not about it >> andrew, the markets are looking pretty high to us, they've been looking high to us for a while so we think diversification is key for putting our money more toward quality and value stocks things that aren't getting adds much market attention right now but that we think will perform well in the years ahead. >> so let's talk about a couple

of those i think one of your top picks right now is paypal. why? >> that's right. at the forefront of all of the e-commerce and digital payments and we think there has been a huge amount of demand as people have been staying at home, conducting commerce from their couch, from their beds, wherever they're hanging out and we think that that's going to continue as we move beyond this pandemic ultimately and people get out and about more and begin to resume more of a normal life we also like that paypal is working with merchants to bring crypto into the fold and we think that's going to be really important as more of the cryptocurrencies become more mainstream in the years ahead. >> and you don't think the stocks -- i mean, the stock did go on a run. >> it did, yeah, it's pulled back a little bit, but we think that -- we think it's poised to deliver solid returns over the next year, you know, in the 25% neighborhood and we think, you know, the multiple is quite high

right now, but because we're bullish on the revenue over time and they've also proven to be really great at their return on investment, we see the multiple coming down over time as they grow into it. >> we don't have a lot of time, but 30 seconds on why you like american tower >> infrastructure play it's so great. they're building, they're operating, they're developing towers across the globe that's used for communication and with the demand for 5g integration and just a lot of cellular data we think they're poised to deliver very well and especially overseas as other countries like india and countries in latin america catch up with the u.s. on this technology update cycle. >> all right and that stock has been on the move this year as well sandi, i want to thank you for coming on. >> thank you. >> i appreciate your insights and perspective.

hope to have another conversation with you soon let's take a final check on the markets, we are about a half an hour before the opening bell dow has come down even more, about 353 points, nasdaq off about 260 points, s&p 500 off about 54 points. i want to thank kelly evans for hanging out with us. >> thank for having me jetblue's market cap $3.5 billion. it's a minnow. >> join us tomorrow. "squawk on the street" begins right now. ♪ good thursday morning, welcome to "squawk on the street," i'm carl quintanilla with jim cramer, david faber futures are weak as this the fed hangover continues from woul's press run wednesday. jobless claims don't budge by much, just down about 33,000 and snow flake is back below its opening price from yesterday's action watch oil, too, as sally leaves its mark on production